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rb |
Red Line ?? |
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Anybody used it or noticed any difference in the results?
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D Wingfield |
Re: Red Line ?? | ||
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Matt Hayes has, there was a thread recently about it
Best Regards Dave |
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rb |
Re: Red Line ?? | ||
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Been back through some threads, any idea how rescent ??
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medwaydan |
Re: Red Line ?? | ||
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saddo that I am, I was thinking about this today. no expert, but there are a couple of scientific principles that may come into play here.
firstly, we see line in the water looking down - ie with the light source (sun/sky) behind us. hence what we see of the line is reflected light bouncing back to us from the line's surface/core. any colour we see in the line is caused by that colour being preferentially reflected by the line's chemistry, and its interaction with the optics of the water between it and our eyes. whereas, fish will by and large see the line from below, in other words backlit by the light source. in this case, any colour they see in the line will be the opposite of the first case - it will be the light frequencies (which our eyes interpret as colour) which are NOT absorbed or reflected by the line. If all light is reflected by a particular line, we will see it as white, but fish will see it as black, in other words a straight, black line through their line of vision. So, as an extension of this, any light absorbed by the line (ie any apparent colour to us) will make that line show up as a darker feature against the relative clarity and neutral 'colour' of the water. Therefore, it would seem that having any colour in the line or even reflectivity(?) of the line, will make that line visible to the fish. One further element: it would seem obvious that the thicker the line, the more visible it is to us, and the fish. To an extent that is true. But there is a complication. Since line has a circular cross-section, it acts as an effective lens in two dimensions. So that, even if all light passes through the line, ie it is totally transparent, the light path can be distorted. It has been well understood for many (hundreds?) of years that, the tighter the curve on the lens (ie the smaller the radius of the circle), the more magnfication or distortion it creates - try looking at a raindrop on a window. Early microscopes used tiny bead lenses, since the radius was as small as possible. Can you see where I'm going with this? In my opinion, it would appear that thinner line can actually distort light more than thicker! Hence to a fish that is looking upwards, that increased distortion could make a thin line just as visible as a thicker one (anyone seen the Schwarzenegger film 'Predator'?). Since the water surface is uneven, there is always distortion of the image of objects above the surface, since that image must pass through the surface layer (seen from the fish's point of view) but anything below the surface, ie anything actually in the water, will be part of a pretty uniform liquid, and hence any distortions will be quite unusual, and probably quite visible, especially at close range. So, to conclude my argument, given that, especially in the late day, red light is the most prominent in the sky, a thin red fishing line will be seen to fish below as a distinct, black line, with further light-distorting qualities the nearer they get to it! Matt Hayes is an intelligent, successful, experienced angler. He is also sponsored. The scientific deduction above is my own, and proves quite clearly that the best fishing line is in fact a thin, flat sheet of cling film. You work it out! dan |
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Chris Plumb |
Re: Red Line ?? | ||
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I don't buy this red line thing either - many freshwater species have eyes which have a bias TOWARD the red end of the spectrum. Perch in particular have taken this red bias further as they have the visual pigment porphyropsin (and only this) in the their rods in the back of the retina - and of a kind that actually absorbs further into the infra-red than any other known pigment. (It helps them see in murky conditions.)
I believe that red line loses its colour at around 15 feet depth of water - but wouldn't this mean it would appear black? C. "Study to be Quiet"
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His miserableness |
Red line | ||
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Interesting thread this, now can we assume then (as i have always thought) that any line irrespective of colour or lack of it is visible by fish when viewed fron underneath? Where it becomes more of an issue,assuming the mainline is backleaded is whether it can be seen from above which is where Flourocarbon scores? add to this the glossy reflective finish on most mono lines and it is far from straight forward.There is also a train of thought that fish are not too bothered by something alien that they can see,but brush against something 'invisible' and they're gone,but then if nothings invisible how can that be so
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morston |
Re: Red line | ||
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We are kidding ourselves if we think that fish do not see our line , or any of our tackle, no matter how we try to disguise it.
They see it but they don't know what it is. Fish spend much of their lives eating tiny creatures which we would have a job to see. These creatures are better camouflaged than any tackle we might use (in spite of our efforts to disguise it). Just have a look at the stomach contents of any fish Cahal |
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medwaydan |
Re: red line | ||
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even in 'cloudy' water, fish visibility is possibly better than we think.
the 'cloudiness' is probably more apparent to us, since the opacity and dark bottom coupled with refraction at the surface boundary, cause a mirror effect, reducing our ability to see down into the water. polarising lenses cut this down some. looking up through the water towards the light is much easier. consider the perceived difference in water visibility between a swimming pool and garden pond, even though the water can be 100% clear. If the fish could not see well (at least, better than surface predators) even in cloudy water, they would be at a distinct disadvantage, even given their other sensory capabilities. when was the last time you saw a fish 'frozen' in cloudy water when hooked? or run headlong into the bank? walk towards the light, little fish. sob. regards dan ps: as most will be aware, the surface refraction, or straw-in-a-glass-of-water effect, means that fish can effectively see round corners in the vertical plane, hence the importance of staying low, even away from the water's edge. pps: fish eyes are optimised for visibility within the optical environment of water. wonder if things look different when we put them on the bank? do they have to readjust when we return them to the water? |
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fredrickmore |
Re: red line | ||
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I know some tropical fish like plecs cant see red, as they will happly come out of hiding when a red light is on rather than any other colour.
However majoirty of predator fish must be able to see red to know if the fish is bleeding not, example of this is putting red wool/flossy stuff on the hook on lures. |
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D Wingfield |
Re: red line | ||
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Cahal
That is one of the most sensible posts to appear on BFW for a long while, the tackle companies won't agree with you though. click here for more info on red line Matt Hayes also uses yellow line quite a lot as well on the tele. Best Regards Dave |
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trentbarbeler |
Re: red line | ||
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Dear All,
Black Dacron with budgie bells attatched at 2 foot intervals does the job. Barbel hear the bells jingling and come for a look-see. What on Earth's that, they wonder having never seen or heard budgie bells before. Then they spot the hook bait and think, "Might as well have a bite to eat whilst I'm trying to suss out what this contraption is". Bingo. Fish every time. Or you could believe everything Matt thingie tells you? Regards, Lee. |
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medwaydan |
Re: red line | ||
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re: matt hayes / yellow line.
I would imagine that for good tv, matt would use knicker elastic if necessary! doesn't mean that that's what he uses to catch the fish for the programme though, or even that the knicker elastic is his own. tv is tv - it ain't fishin'. if he's making a programme, he'll do what is necessary to make good tv. if, like us, he gets a day on the bank for his own pleasure, he'll use what works. |
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robbo 06 |
Re: red line | ||
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if fish cant see the colour red than why do bait companies make red baits
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medwaydan |
Re: red line | ||
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robbo,
I don't think anyone is saying fish can't see red - quite the reverse. personally swear by red maggits. the gist of the thread is that the line companies are saying that red line 'disappears' in water, since red is absorbed quicker than other colours. what we are suggesting is that, yes, the red eventually is scattered or absorbed, but that doesn't leave nothing - it leaves black. so red line doesn't disappear, it becomes black line. in the same way that you see a red sunset, because that colour gets scattered by the atmosphere, I'm guessing that the red bait reflects/scatters light better than other colours, hence making it more visible to fish - much better logic. hope this clarifies the point. |
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robbo 06 |
Re: red line | ||
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thanks that makes alot more sence now medwaydan, i had read somefing somewhere i think it may have been in the anging times that the colour red actually disappear, but that the line actually just goes to a black colour makes alot more sence
cheers Rob |
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morston |
Re: red line | ||
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As I said earlier....no matter what colour your line...bait...leads...tackle etc. are the fish will still see it.
It is other factors which may put them off but don't kid yourself that fish can not see your tackle. Cahal |
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D Wingfield |
Re: red line | ||
Quote: So what you are saying is that when he his shown playing a fish in on yellow line, he isn't actually as this is all made up for the cameras. Oh I get it there must be someone out in a boat pulling on the end of the rod to make you think he has a fish on.......and all this just to promote yellow line. Do me a favour Dave |
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medwaydan |
Re: red line | ||
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dave
the point I'm making is that if, as a viewer, you are watching a guy playing a fish and you can't see the line (which in coarse fishing is part of the line design, not so important at sea) then it takes away some of the visual 'keys' you need to understand and appreciate the action. so perhaps some of the fishing is done with the bright line, and no doubt fish caught with it, to ensure good visuals on the tv. but it may be that, to get the good catches, line that is great for fishing but poor for tv will be used to ensure decent fish are caught, so that both parts of the fishing prog equation are met. the sequences are then cut together to make the best of both. no tv company has the budget to put half a dozen cameras on an angler for hours. how do you reckon they get action from multiple angles? .......or not. it's just a suggestion! some of this is meant to be tongue-in-cheek dave, and is not a criticism of anybody! all the behind-the-scenes programmes on telly now make it fairly obvious that, to get good footage of 'real' action, you have to use some tricks of the trade. not unreasonable, as long as what comes out is a fair reflection of what actually happened? maybe matt believes what several of the guys have said here - that the fish are going to see it whatever the colour, and so he concentrates on other aspects of bait presentation. just in case of any further confusion, here is matt to speak for himself: |
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paul4barbus |
Re: red line | ||
Quote: faq / line / The end of Fluro? (from Archive 40) paul4 |
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Chris Plumb |
Re: red line | ||
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Just resurrecting this recent thread....
This article is quite interesting - compares the visual systems of fish and humans - needs PowerPoint... www.cs.rit.edu/~rsg/FishV...Group2.ppt C. "Study to be Quiet"
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Splint123 |
Re: red line | ||
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Hi guys,
I don't buy this red line thing either. I do quite a lot of scuba diving and, as you all know, red is the first colour you lose after about 15 feet or so. But rather than becoming 'invisible', I can confirm that it DOES become black. So wouldn't that be MORE visible??? Interestingly, my friend cut himself on a wreck we were diving on, and his blood was dark green! Dave. There is a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore acting like an idiot.
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