Will the Otter bring an end to the golden years of Barbel Fishing?

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GavinHill	Will the Otter bring an end to the golden years of Barbel Fishing?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 318 (17/03/08 13:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Hearing that otters are now in the Loddon and will therefore inevitably spread to the Kennet and Thames (if they're not already there anyway) got me thinking. There was a big discussion about otters at the Trevor West evening in Oxford last year. Some of the Midland lads were saying that their local river seemed devoid of barbel and suspected that the otter was the cluprit. Also if I heard it correctly the Traveller was killed by an otter? The last 5-10 years have seen barbel becoming more widespread and increasing dramatically in numbers and size. Now that the otter seems to be making a strong comeback the barbel must be a great potential food source for them. Don't get me wrong; I think otters are a fasinating animal (after all "Tarka the Otter" was mandatory reading when I was at school!) and it's great that their numbers are increasing when they had virtually disappeared from our rivers. But I would hate to see them have a serious impact on the sport that I love so much. I'm interested if anyone else is concerned that the otter will affect the number of barbel in our rivers and result in a decline in our fishing over the next 5-10 years? Perhaps someone with more knowlegde than me can tell us how many fish an otter will eat and how many otters a stretch of river can potentially support. Gavin
whiskerton	otters	#1	[-]
Posts: 184 (17/03/08 14:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Apparently Otter meat is a real delicacy in eastern Europe.End of problem,Imagine the outrage in certain areas of the media if the fluffy otters start getting butchered left right and centre. Mike
Wurzel	Otters	#2	[-]
Posts: 1251 (17/03/08 14:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Gavin, They have already brought and end to the golden years of barbel fishing on the upper thames above lechlade, but i dont think that all rivers will suffer the same fate. The upper thames barbel already suffered from poor recruitment and probable predation of eggs by crayfish, the otters just added to the problem. The warwickshire avon has a fair few otters on it and barbel stocks have remained fairly good with numbers of barbel in all size ranges, however, there are also lots of eels in the w.avon which is the otters prefered food source. Likewise with the Severn. I think it depends on the biodiversity of the river and its environment as to whether otters will have an impact on barbel stocks, but i always remain concerned when there are otters around. A breeding pair of otters will usually hunt an area of around 5 miles of river and offspring will spread out along the river and establish themselves further afield, unless of course they are introduced. I think i remember reading something a while back about there being a halt on otter re-introductions nationally. The upper thames otters were introduced near castle eaton around 10 - 15 years ago and have established themselves well. The thames has very few eels up this way, so the chub, barbel and pike get eaten. Wurzel
Lawman		#3	[-]
Posts: 1717 (17/03/08 15:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Interesting one this. Lots of, (emotive), discussion historically. So is there any compelling data that directly correlates introduction of otters and decline in barbel numbers? Ian "A mound of earth on Walton Breck Road was created for the growing numbers of fans to watch the team. It was called the 'Spion Kop' after a battle in the Boer War six years earlier. It was not the only Kop - low hill in Afrikaans - nor the first. But it would become the greatest......."
Wurzel	Otters	#4	[-]
Posts: 1253 (17/03/08 16:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ian, I think it would be very difficult to find any compelling data in view of the sensitivity of the subject, however the EA in Wallingford who completed a survey of the barbel stocks on the upper thames before the 2005 season acknowledge that Otters along with the other concerns already mentioned (plus habitat erosion/silting and possibly EDS), have contributed to the decline of barbel in this part of the river. The physical evidence is there with half eaten carcasses (two that i know of personally) left on the bankside, a witnessed attack of an otter eating an estimated 6lb barbel at Hannington, after the angler had managed to get the barbel feeding on his free offerings. Wurzel
Avon Calling		#5	[-]
Posts: 97 (17/03/08 16:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think there are more on our rivers than most of us realise. Certainly when night fishing I've heard them coming up the river! Quite freaky actually. It sounded like a person taking a deep breath, then it went quiet, then the otter would re-appear further upstream. At least, I think it was an otter................ I'd be disgusted if anglers started killing them or poisoning them etc. It would give angling a terrible reputation. We've got to realise that they're just there in their natural environment. Bit like pike really. Yes, they eat fish but they don't eat all the fish in the river, otherwise they'd soon be starving to death. Well that's the way I look at it anyway. There could be a danger if conservstion groups got involved and banned people from fishing near holts etc. I think life's too short to worry about otters killing fish. I imagine it's upsetting to see specimens half eaten on the bank but that's just life (or death) I guess............ "Robson Green is an actor, not a fisherman. What's next? John Wilson presents ice skating?"
hatterbarbel		#6	[-]
Posts: 641 (17/03/08 16:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi men , Paul , I have seen an otter in board daylight at the next lock down from Lechlade ( can,t remember its name ), swimming / rolling along the edge before heading up beside the lock keepers cottage , so it wern,t very scared of human contact !!!. The upper Thames has suffered , along with some of its tributaries , most notably the Windrush , and some of the fishery owners in that area were getting very " twitchy " about the whole subject . Its probably to hard a subject to have an outright definitively answer , with so many other factors coming into play , but put it this way , they cant be helping the situation . How do you gather evidence ????, do you need to see a barbel in its claws ? , very hard . How about a consensus of opinion from places where predation seems to be occurring, without any body getting uptight with the answers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, how about you adams mill members ?. Hatter
Wurzel	Otters	#7	[-]
Posts: 1254 (17/03/08 16:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hatter, i think you are refering to Buscot Lock and Weir which used to be a haven for mink in years gone by. Lechlade used to produce the odd barbel and may still do the odd fish, but i know of many of who have tried and failed. The numbers just arent there any more. I agree with you, it would be very hard to gather the required evidence unless you were walking the river very regularly and i just dont have that amount of free time (rather be fishing somewhere with barbel in it). At least the EA accept there is a problem locally and are apparently trying to do something about it with habitat restoration. But i think they will be up against it if there efforts are being hampered by predators. Wurzel
barbeltastic		#8	[-]
Posts: 690 (17/03/08 17:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Otters are a constant menace to barbel numbers on the Wensum, in as much as they kill the odd big fish every year. In itself this shouldn't be a problem except that barbel recruitment is very poor, therefore the future of barbel in the river is rather uncertain!
hatterbarbel		#9	[-]
Posts: 642 (17/03/08 17:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi men , Avon calling , I dont think killing / hunting them by anglers is the answer , nor would advocate it . BUT I dont think being politically correct is the way to go either .How long do you let a problem go before addressing it ? .I know the EA know about it , and if nature evened things out , balanced , then why are some stretches I know almost devoid of barbel . Im not scare mongering , just hope that standing up for the right of a species to be on our rivers does not see the end of the balance we have now , which seems ok . Paul , what was surprising was pointing the otter out to the lock keeper , he was amazed , and could not believe it was trotting up beside his house !!!. Hatter
Thames bloke		#10	[-]
Posts: 63 (17/03/08 17:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	On the lower i would have no worries about seeing an otter, they will find a substanable level. What concerns me on the lower regarding fish stocks are the Catfish, we already have a fair few of them on the lower and allegedly some whoppers. A 6lb Barbel would make a lovely evening meal for those Catfish, It was this BIG
Wurzel	Otters	#11	[-]
Posts: 1255 (17/03/08 17:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hatter, I usually i dont see any otters until after dark,although a few years back at water eaton, i did see a pair playing around in the reeds. They'll be after our sandwiches next. The biggest one ive seen is on the w. avon and it was the size of a medium sized dog. Often, nature redresses the balance, but where you have a number of declining influences, losing just one fish in a low density stretch can spell the end of a barbel fishery. I dont bother with the upper river near me anymore, the barbel have all but dissappeared. Upsetting, but thats the reality. However, the success story on the Thames is further downstream, so after a few years off, i'll be back on the old father next season, complete with 9 months supply of Anadin Extra and i cant wait. Wurzel
Andy Davies		#12	[-]
Posts: 2820 (17/03/08 17:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Regularly spot them on the Avon, Lower Severn and Ouse these days, but cant say I have notcied any decline in the barbel fishing... I was completely taken aback recently when a young one joined me on the bank within 6feet for a few moments recently on the Avon. Andy
treepeg		#13	[-]
Posts: 1 (17/03/08 18:38) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	No ,but they certainly will not improve things on rivers that cannot sustain otters .The moronic few that have released these mammals anywhere they deemed fit, should think about what they have achieved in doing so.
Avon Calling		#14	[-]
Posts: 98 (17/03/08 19:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	hatterbarbel wrote: Hi men , Avon calling , I dont think killing / hunting them by anglers is the answer , nor would advocate it . BUT I dont think being politically correct is the way to go either .How long do you let a problem go before addressing it ? .I know the EA know about it , and if nature evened things out , balanced , then why are some stretches I know almost devoid of barbel . Im not scare mongering , just hope that standing up for the right of a species to be on our rivers does not see the end of the balance we have now , which seems ok . Paul , what was surprising was pointing the otter out to the lock keeper , he was amazed , and could not believe it was trotting up beside his house !!!. Hatter Yes I see what you mean about needing to conserve ALL species (including barbel). But let's not forget that a lot of our barbel rivers are not strictly 'meant' to have barbel in them (i.e. they were introduced by anglers)................ Obviously I'm not anti barbel but I think it's worth remembering when looking at the bigger picture? I don't disagree with what you're saying either, just putting another view across. I'm convinced that the way forward for anglers is to concentrate on improving habitat (especially spawning grounds and refuges for smaller fish etc) rather than moan about predation from otters. Now that may seem wishy washy and PC but being anti otters will not do us any good at all. As an aside, I've not mentioned to people that I've seen otters.Word travels around too quickly for my liking. I'm worried about nature groups and ramblers etc getting involved and putting protection zones etc around areas with otters. Now this may seem ridiculously paranoid but that's the way I am! I'm more frightened of antis than otters. "Robson Green is an actor, not a fisherman. What's next? John Wilson presents ice skating?"
chris1947		#15	[-]
Posts: 22 (17/03/08 20:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I have to agree with treepeg . They seem to have appeared all over the place and I don't recall reading about anyone asking permission or any discussion with conservation groups. A classic example of ignorant irresponsibility . Given that they have no natural predators it seems likely that they will spread quite rapidly. What with increasing water temps , the serious problems with water treatment plants {oestrogen levels} , I really fear for the future . Almost glad to be sixty .
GavinHill		#16	[-]
Posts: 319 (17/03/08 22:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	An interesting discussion and some very good points. I'm totally against the idea of anglers taking matters into their own hands just to protect their sport. Otters are natural to this country (unlike signal crayfish!), I think they are great creatures and are protected by law. I think "Avon calling" makes a very sensible point when he says: I'm convinced that the way forward for anglers is to concentrate on improving habitat (especially spawning grounds and refuges for smaller fish etc) rather than moan about predation from otters. Now that may seem wishy washy and PC but being anti otters will not do us any good at all. However, when you remember how many years it takes a 10lb barbel to mature and that it can be killed by an otter in seconds it real does concern me. I can see nothing to prevent otters from becoming very widespread and as such they are bound to have an impact on fish stocks. I know nature will establish a new balance but I fear it will mean significantly less barbel and fewer large fish. Gavin
leso		#17	[-]
Posts: 3597 (17/03/08 23:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	all the rivers i fish hold both Otters and Barbel, no doubt about it whatsoever that itis the Barbel that are flourishing whilst the Otters are just about holding their own, i look for there tracks and spores, one massive positive with the re-habitation of these rivers has been the decline of the Mink and the comeback of the Vole and Sand Martins amongst others to some of those stretches, both had been conspicuous in there absence for a number of years, long may this trend continue
RollingPinBoy		#18	[-]
Posts: 1392 (17/03/08 23:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Everything will be fine..until they appear that is and rip your barbel's guts out!!...Ray I have also read that they love eating water voles as well!! Water Vole Enemies. Water voles have a few natural predators including herons, owls, pike, mink and otters. When chased underwater by an enemy, such as an otter, the vole kicks up a cloud of mud that acts like a smokescreen, giving the vole a chance to escape via one of its underwater burrow entrances. "They're bigger than me but they keep my ears warm" www.barbelshack.com Last Edited By: RollingPinBoy 17/03/08 23:31. Edited 1 times.
Andy Thatcher		#19	[-]
Posts: 6294 (17/03/08 23:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Seen this arguement before and still after reading all the posts still tend to think that barbel got on perfectly well with otters for thousands of years. We created a brief interlude through hunting and pollution when they did not co-exist and things are going back to the way they were. Cheers Andy
RollingPinBoy	Heres how they do it with big fish!	#20	[-]
Posts: 1393 (17/03/08 23:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You can download this clip from the BBC and play it on your Media player. http://www.bbcmotiongallery.com/Customer/SearchDetails.aspx?searchText=otters&type=Simple&page=2&itemId=33b815b7-1ffc-49d5-b456-b5704f79ace4 "They're bigger than me but they keep my ears warm" www.barbelshack.com

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Will the Otter bring an end to the golden years of Barbel Fishing?

Will the Otter bring an end to the golden years of Barbel Fishing?

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